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Friday, October 12, 2007

A Rogue's Revenge: MMO Influences on D&D 4th Edition






There is no debating that every MMO is deeply indebted to pen and paper D&D. It's the foundation we all game on. But I've found something interesting as I've casually followed the news of the upcoming 4th Edition of D&D. With 4th Edition, D&D seems to be taking strong inspiration from the MMO world. My information regarding the 4th Edition comes mainly from EN World, the D20 Source blog and, of course, Wizards.

I intend to look at some of the links between MMO's and the 4th Edition of D&D and the lessons each group could stand to learn from the other.

Technology

D&D Gaming Table

The D&D Gaming Table provides a way to play D&D online with other people. You can create maps, move characters, traps and monsters around and roll dice. Check the video out
here. They do some pretty neat things with lighting and "fog of war."

Hmm...a roleplaying game played online with other people. Sounds like an MMORPG doesn't it? Well, not exactly. While the online D&D Gaming Table is a multiplayer, online experience, the real "game" portion is taking place outside of the online space. And the number of players is limited.

Now, nothing will ever, ever replace for me the excitement of sitting around a table and gaming with real people. But this option will give me the opportunity to play D&D with people I met through playing MMO's or through this site who do not live anywhere near me. And I'm truly looking forward to that. I do think it may take a few iterations before this first attempt is a truly solid product. And remember, the real game takes place between the DM and the players. Wizards is just providing some tools to play that game. You could honestly play D&D online right now in an IRC chat room or even Second Life. But I think it's great that Wizards is attempting to give us a polished option to take our D&D game into the virtual world.

Character Creator

This is direct from MMO land and looks just like any MMO character creator (you can view the D&D Character Creator in the
same video about 2:58 in). While characters created using this tool can be imported directly into D&D Gaming Table, I think it may also prove handy for games played around the traditional table. It's just a cool way to set up your character sheet and even have a graphical representation that you and others can enjoy. I wasn't blown away with the video but I do see it as having nice potential.

The Business Model

It's pretty interesting to see D&D working the subscription model, a true MMO staple. In fact, they even reference MMO's in their Ask Wizards feature:

"At Gen Con, we did state that the price would fall somewhere between the cost of a single print issue of Dragon magazine and the monthly fee of a MMORPG (in other words, between $10 and $15)."

I believe some people (especially DM's) will sign up for this subscription service even if they never intend to use the online Gaming Table. Rather, they will use available tools and additional resources such as the DM Toolkit or the Campaign Vault to better their real life D&D experience.

Patching = Errata

What happens when there's a bug in your MMO? Well, it gets patched (or at least you hope it does). It's a pretty good system and I appreciate when companies patch their games often. But what happens if there's an error in a D&D book? Well, they can't really patch that can they? It's a physical text. But Wizards may be borrowing the concept of patching for D&D. See the following quote from
here:

Another factor that will change the face of errata is the implementation of the database, which plays such a central role in our management of 4 Edition. With the institution of ebooks that accompany one’s physical copy, we have the option of keeping one’s ebook updated with the latest changes, from the very small (a “+2” instead of a “+3”) to the very big (changing the text of an ability or feat). That’s not to say there still won’t be a physical copy of the errata, but we might simply compile quarterly changes made in the database into a readable format, rather than the sporadic release that now exists.

If they handle this the right way, they could build a ton of goodwill with customers. Here's my opinion of the "right way:"

1. Player buys the Monster Manual at a gaming store and takes it home.

2. There's an error in the text.

3. Player enters a code from the Manual on Wizards' website and is given access to a special section dedicated to updating the Monster Manual. (I don't believe there should be any subscription fee for this feature if you purchased the book).

4. Player prints the change and affixes it to his or her physical book.

I think that kind of D&D "patching" could be great.

Game Updates

But updates in MMO's aren't only about patching existing problems. I know I looked forward to each Update in EQII to see if new abilities, new weapons, new items and even new zones were going to be made available. I felt this was a terrific way to keep players excited and interested in the game. MMO's have the advantage of being able to do this online.

Now D&D will be able to accomplish a similar goal through their online services. By getting issues of Dungeons Magazine and Dragons Magazines online, in addition to other information provided through D&D Insider, players will be able to supplement their games with new adventures, items and skills. This could truly be beneficial to both Wizards and the players.

Going Further

In one case Wizards seems to be borrowing more from the broader Web 2.0 world than from MMO's. Wizards has a website called
Gleemax (awful name but horrid website names are web 2.0 to the core) which looks to be a sort of Facebook for D&D and Magic players. Although various MMO companies have attempted things like Gleemax, I think Gleemax looks to be more robust. Well, it's pretty much exactly what I was talking about just a few posts ago. I do think it will take Wizards some time to perfect the system. And while I wholeheartedly endorse the idea, I think the design and layout of the website need serious work.

The Core

All the above relate to technology, which I view as supporting but secondary portions of the 4th Edition experience. What I found most fascinating is that even at the core of the 4th edition, the actual pen and paper rule-set, you can see what I think are MMO influences.

Defined Player & Monster Roles

One of the strongest MMO connections in 4th Edition is the intent to define player roles more clearly. They may be calling the roles other names, but I sure recognize Tank, Healer, CC and Ranged and Melee DPS. I know some people are worried that this will take away from the variety of the characters. But I believe that 4th Edition is actually going to give players more options to customize their characters both in and out of combat. The use of player roles is more about making it easier to balance groups. There should be no more "oh, you have to play a cleric, the party needs one." So this change should result in more options, not less. And it should make balancing encounters a lot easier for the DM.

Now, where D&D is going further then MMO's is giving the mobs (or monsters if you will) similar classes. So some monsters will be tanks, other will do crowd control and so on. This will definitely make it easier for DM's to put together solid, exciting encounters in much less time. Believe me MMO's would love to do this - it would make combat far more exciting. And to some extent they have, but it's really not there yet. The beauty of D&D is that you don't have to worry about AI, because the DM is the AI. But I think MMO's will reach this point someday. Just think about fighting a group of orcs in an MMO. Would you rather fight five orcs who just sit there and swing the same club at you or a coordinated group with tanks, healers and ranged dps? It would lead to so much more excitement as players put together different strategies based on what they are facing.

Raising the Level Cap

Just like an MMO expansion, 4th Edition raises the level cap to 30. I wonder if this is a direct response to the fact that many MMO players are used to more levels then 20. Even if not, it's a move strongly reminiscent of MMO-world.

Level Balancing

It's one thing to raise the level cap. It's another thing entirely to make every level just as fun and playable as every other level. But that is one of the major stated intentions of 4th Editon. It's also something that's often been discussed in the MMO world. MMO companies are always trying to ensure that the lower or middle levels are as fun as the higher levels, or vice versa. Their success is debatable so I think it will be interesting for MMO fans and developers to watch how Wizards handles this.

Racial Bonuses

MMO's and D&D are both faced with the challenge of making race actually mean something. Whether you choose to be an elf or a dwarf in an MMO does the character play any differently, graphics aside? When you roll up an elf or a dwarf in D&D does the character play any differently, roleplaying aside? MMO's have made strides in this area. EQII, for example, introduced special racial quests and racial traits. In LOTRO, different deeds are available for different races, allowing you to further customize your character.

D&D also seems to be headed in this (positive) direction by allowing for different racial traits to be achieved as the player levels. This attempt to make classes of different races play differently from one another seems to be one of the focuses of 4th Edition. The goal is to make an elf fighter play differently then a dwarf fighter, and so on.

Note the importance of both MMO's and D&D making race a factor as you level. If you play an MMO and choosing an elf gives you 5 points more dexterity when you begin, well, that's great. But that difference will be long forgotten when you're at level 50. It's important to make the distinctions in play continuous ones that effect you at the high as well as low levels. Gaining new racial traits as you level is certainly a way to do this.

Character Customization

Just as it's important for race to play a role in your character, it's also critical for you to continue to customize your character level by level. Again, this is important in both D&D and MMO's. You never want your wizard to be the same as every other wizard, no matter what game you're playing. Allowing customization is key to building that connection and emotional attachment between player and character. I think Wizards is really refining the customization of characters with feats and talent trees, just as we have seen further refinement in the MMO world.
Wizards also seems to have picked up a lesson which MMO companies learned. Just as it's important to have character customization, it's also important not to have players feel trapped by "bad choices." EQII and WoW allow for spending money to change your character customization decisions. Likewise, 4th Edition will apparently allow for swapping out or switching various feats and abilities.

Choice of Classes and Races

One thing I find of great interest in the MMO world is the amount of classes and races each game gives you. The obvious feeling may be the more the merrier and variety certainly is important. However,
back in August of 2006, I argued that, based on some very interesting scientific studies, perhaps too many choices is a bad thing. To dramatically oversimplify that post, a quick summary is that consumers faced with more choices actually purchased less. And students given less choices for an assignment actually performed better. So I'm not bothered that 4th Edition will somewhat reduce the amount of races and classes in the game in an attempt to hit the sweet spot.

Forums Frenzy

If there's one thing MMO's and D&D really have in common it's the insanity on the forums. Both communities are intensely passionate about their games and whenever a change or expansion is announced there is a mix of excitement and anger. And it's a wild ride. You get the same personalities and even many of the same arguments on the D&D forums that you do on MMO forums. And I understand the concerns people have.

But for me it's simple. It comes down to the fact that I trust these designers as much as any group of game designers out there. They have the passion for the game and they have the design skills. I don't have to agree with every move they make, because I have faith in the overall picture.

As for the financial aspect, I know it stings to buy more books. But you really don't have to. I think you can ride 3.5 for another decade, especially with the Open Gaming License (and the OGL better be just as strong for 4th edition - it's critical). If you sit down and analyze the entertainment value you received from D&D and compare it with your financial outlay, I'll think you'll agree that this is a value investment, especially when compared to other forms of entertainment.

Bilateral Lessons

MMO Companies Should Learn This D&D Lesson

If you listen to Episode 16 of the official D&D podcast (available for free on ITunes) you will hear some ideas regarding monsters in the 4th Edition that I think MMO developers could stand to hear and apply to mob AI and mechanics.

* Interesting At Any Level - Just because a mob is Level 3 doesn't mean it has to be ten times less exciting than a level 30 mob. Designers should strive to make combat exciting at the early levels to hook new players. In the podcast, the designers discuss changing the mechanics of a Level 2 monster, the Kruthik, so that it is a challenging and exciting encounter for players. How many incredibly boring low level monsters do we encounter in MMO's?

* Making the Mechanics Match the Story - When we are fighting a monster in D&D or a mob in an MMO, we're basically fighting a collection of numbers: attack, defense, hit points and the like. So what makes one monster different from the next? What makes us feel like we are fighting a Griffon or a Beholder? In MMO's we have graphics and in D&D we have our imagination and roleplaying. But if you put that aside and think about it, doesn't it seem like many of the monsters we fight, especially in MMO's, are very similar?

So how do we make fighting a Griffon seem different then fighting a Beholder? The D&D designers stated that they really made an effort to make the actual combat mechanics for each monster match the backstory and "feel" of the monster. I think this is crucial. I realize it is harder to accomplish in an MMO, but it's worth the effort.

* Differentiating Similar Monsters - If an MMO asks you to kill 10 orcs and then to kill 10 goblins and then kill 10 gnolls, is there really a difference? Sure the graphics might be a bit different, but that's it. On the podcast, the designers discuss attempting to significantly differentiate the backstories of similar monsters. And then the next step is to make the mechanics and "AI" match the concept. An example given was that Gnolls might attack you like a pack of hyenas while Hobgoblins march towards you like Roman legionnaires. This variation in attack procedure is based on the differing backstories of each race. Again, the mechanics aspect of this is harder to capture in an MMO but I think it's something worth striving for.

Wizards Could Learn This MMO Lesson

If there's one strong lesson to be learned from the MMO world over the last few years, it's that taking the time to polish and playtest is incredibly important. Just look at WoW on one hand and Vanguard on the other. Heck, even SOE has caught on to the importance of a polished product, breaking with their previous hard-line expansion release schedule. But I don't think Wizards learned that lesson.

I believe that Wizards has not allocated enough time to polishing and playtesting. In reading and listening to the comments of the designers I just don't think they are in the place they should be to release this product on the timeline they want to. And even though I know they shut the whole company down for months of hardore playtesting, I don't think they have allocated enough time to exterior playtesting. I could be wrong in this assessment but it is my belief. I just think polish is key these days.


Conclusion

It's a wonderful and exciting time to be a D&D player. Let's not forget that there have been some really tough periods in D&D's history. It's great to see Wizards continually working to bring us the best game they can and experimenting with different ways to do so. And this isn't only about current players. I have to think that this will be good for new players and even those who, like myself, have been away for a bit. That can only help the game.

I will say that the views expressed in this post are coming from someone who has not actively played in a while but who is dying to get back in. Current players may have a different (and more informed) perspective and I certainly understand and appreciate that.

161 Comments:

Anonymous Wargut said...

Nice post Aggro. I am inspired once again to possibly try out another online game. Very interesting concepts and I'm curious how it will unfold once everything is ready to go. Shoot me an email once of these days and I'll get a character going :)

2:01 PM  
Blogger Karnatos said...

I tried to get a game of D&D going with a couple friends about 3yrs ago... and it did not go well. I am not sure if it was due to our difference in styles; I was more casual, the DM was used to having a dedicated group that never-ever-missed-a-session-ever...ever, while the others were in between. I found it hard to find the time to get home from my day job, eat, and then justify hauling my tired butt across town to meet up with the gang. It's not that they were a bad bunch that could not RP, or that they had the social skillset that the D&D player stereotype may cast... they were guys I hung out with all the time. We were all just older and had a hard time getting our acts synchro'd so that things went smoothly as possible.

Anyhoooo - where I'm going is that i think this sort of tool might facilitate the whole idea of gamig together. If they had this Gaming Board tied in with voice chat, it just might be a great tool to help with the whole getting-together-in-once-place issue I was having with the gang...

But I thought there were already free 'versions' of this out there... ppl could use Ventrillo/TeamSpeak for voice, and I could have sworn there was some open source app in development to kinda-sorta do what I saw this Gaming Table attempt (perhaps not to the same extent graphically, but it allowed for dice rolls and other stats/item-oriented juggling). If there is such an app, can someone chime in with what they know? :)

3:37 PM  
Blogger Aggro Me said...

Wargut, glad to hear it - I'll count on you when I test out the online Gaming Table.

Karn, I'm sure those apps do exist and Wizards saw the demand was there. If you go to the home page of that D20 blog I linked you'll see the author put together a dice "bot" for use in playing D&D on IRC.

I just had an idea...it would be kind of cool to all log on with our EQII characters, head to someone's inn room and get a game of D&D going. We could use /rand for dice. I do think that when you play without any maps or minis you miss some opportunities in combat. But I believe it is doable. And something about playing D&D in EQII is so meta it appeals to me.

5:02 PM  
Blogger Karnatos said...

... Aggro Me said: "And something about playing D&D in EQII is so meta it appeals to me" ...

THIS... this my friend is what I was saying when I said "they had the social skillset that the D&D player stereotype may cast" ... too a Tee!

Heheheheheheheh.

And yeah, that sounds geeky enough to bother trying :P

10:00 PM  
Blogger Anskiere said...

Fantasy Grounds for D&D over the net! (been around for years)

And also.. D&D in EQ2? I tried that once!

You say to the group,"probably 20 minute spawn time or something"
Nyty says to the group,"lets play d&d while we wait"
Nyty looks for some paper
Anskiere pulls out a character sheet and a bag of dice from his pocket.
You say, "I already have one.. see.."
Anskiere points to the sheet.
You say, "Level 15 Arcane Archer"
a shadowed deconstructor's Cut Throat hits Nyty for 689 points of slashing damage.
a shadowed deconstructor hits Nyty for 500 points of crushing damage.
a shadowed deconstructor's Slaughter hits Nyty for 538 points of crushing damage.
a shadowed deconstructor's Slaughter hits YOU for 40 points of crushing damage.
a shadowed deconstructor hits Nyty for 594 points of crushing damage.
Nyty says to the group,"AHHH"
a shadowed deconstructor hits Nyty for 623 points of crushing damage.
The symbol begins to fade.
Your bravery begins to fade.
a shadowed deconstructor has killed Nyty.
Random: Anskiere rolls from 1 to 20 on the magic dice...and scores a 20!
You say, "I score a critical hit. You die instantly."

11:12 AM  
Anonymous Yax said...

Instant gratification has to be a concept that's being brought from MMO.

I know I make my players level much faster than the DMG suggests and they love it.

9:02 AM  
Blogger Thomas said...

Yes, there is a free tabletop application: OpenRPG. I've run 3 sessions so far with my new online game for old high school and college friends, and I have been finding it excellent.

Basic features:
-Chat
-GUI dice rolling
-Excellent support for character sheets and automated rolling from the sheets (EXTREMELY convenient for the DM, load the monster ahead of time and you don't have to consult notes and numbers during play)
-MS Paint Style game map. Models are loaded in as sprites based from any image you have, or any image on the web. The background is an image or flat color, there's a grid, and support for free-form and line drawing + text

We use Skype (free!) to talk, trying to use voice for out-of-character stuff and text for in-character actions. So far I've been really enjoying this system!

10:32 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what a corporate suck ass, way to tow the company line.

maybe the reason people play book and paper DnD is because we think DDO and other MMO/MMORPG sucks ass, everthing he said was wrong with MMOs is wrong with DDO and all the rest of them (except most neverwinter free shards,thay require imagination from the DM who sets them up, something lacking with the younger gaming generation). some of us out here just wanted the masters tools promised so long ago and thats all computer assistance we wanted. DnD has evolved over the 24 years since i started but its the DM imagination and the players involvment that brought the game to life not downloads. if you thought a rule was broken you could change it and call it a house rule, WHAT! now if its broken young players just stand around until "someone offical" writes it so you can print it out and spare your brain the HARD WORK of thinking it out yourself. get a life! if its too much to write, do math, keep notes, organize your game papers, remember to bring supplies/dice/a pencil/ect.. and spent some time thinking of adventure ideas THEN HOW THE HECK DO YOU/WILL YOU DEAL WITH ADULT LIFE????

Well....dont worry there are games that don't require thought, imagination, any planning, and no prep time, they can be played the game console (PS2,XBOX 360, wii, ect..) of your choice.

were you hurt by my comments? then don't post them for public rebuttel.

11:57 PM  
Blogger Anskiere said...

Anon.. I don't think your little spiel is going to "hurt" Aggro. The reason for posts are informational and a place for people to discuss them.
That being said, just because things are moving that way doesn't mean that the old ways are out the window. Why do you suddenly assume that there will be no more house rules? And even more to the point why does it matter how other groups of players decide to play the game?
Maybe some people don't have the time to put into the game they once did. Maybe the players you used to play with all moved away in different directions making it impossible to meet in person anymore.

I see your point, but you should really work on your delivery methods. Especially your last two sentences.

10:10 AM  
Blogger Aggro Me said...

Yeah, what Anskiere said.

Anonymous is right about one thing though...DDO is horrible ;)

3:34 PM  
Anonymous Cameron Sorden said...

Great post. Thanks for the preview. :)

11:25 AM  
Blogger Jeff Freeman said...

some of us out here just wanted the masters tools promised so long ago and thats all computer assistance we wanted. DnD has evolved over the 24 years since i started

In 24 years you could have mastered programming in multiple languages and created your own D&D software.

An MMO called "D&D Online" isn't D&D stop online stop. So what you're saying there, yeah... you're spot on.

Mind, MMO players will have difficulty understanding your rather different set of expectations. So though it sounds reasonable to you to have expected a product called "D&D Online" to have been an online incarnation of D&D, certain audiences will think you daft.

This doesn't mean that MMOs have no improvements to offer tabletop gaming, or nothing that wouldn't be an improvement once translated to fit the medium. There's a lot in terms of accessibility, for example, that MMOs handle better than tabletop games.

I also think you're right about house rules becoming more difficult to use. There are all sorts of arguments to that along the lines of, "Well, if they implement a system this or that way," etc. - but if if's and but's were candies and nuts, oh what a Christmas we'd have.

3:29 AM  
Blogger CyricPL said...

@Yax:

I have to respectfully disagree. I don't think the baseline speed of progression should be sped up too much, because it's pretty easy to adjust right now.

As you said, you have no problem speeding up the progression for your groups enjoyment. I move things in the opposite direction, slowing down leveling from the baseline D&D version, and may players like it that way.

My group plays D&D for the express purpose of having an experience that is not the instant gratification world of video games. There are several MMO players in the group, and they come to the D&D table with very different expectations of what will be "fun" than they bring to their MMO play time.

4:32 PM  
Blogger Darvick said...

Hi, I am a veteran DM (21 years) and have played all versions from the old D&D box sets on up - on a regular basis... Each version of D&D is solving the problems of the previous versions, and I am truely excited about 4th edition - I do not expect that this will be the last version of D&D by far, and I like the idea of regular "patches/errata"...

I've played MMORPG's but they do not hold my interest very long - they lack the feel of D&D - the human quirkiness that comes from RPing face-to-face.

For years the groups I have DM'd for have been face-to-face at the table, but now, as a busy working adult, I am faced with the same scheduling problem others have commented on.

My solution has been to use an Internet based tool - RPTools: Maptool for the tabletop feel to allow me to connect to old friends across the country. At the same time, we use Skype to 'conference call' for voice, file transfer, and texting. We create character sheets on Excell, and use anything we find on the Internet as graphical resources...

This solution has worked great for me, and is free! The RPTool site has an 'icon-making' companion program, which I used to create D&D icons - I downloaded pictures of the entire D&D minatures line and created icons for all of them - handy, eh! (900-ish)

The bonus of having the voice and visual mediums across the net offers the tabletop feeling, but seems to free up the imagination, making it easier to picture the battlefield more clearly...

I think WoC would do well to develop their online tool to allow for complete compatibility with the game mechanics, offer built-in voice communication, and the entire inventory of minatures, equipment, treasure, and maps.

5:30 PM  
Blogger ben said...

To completely switch topics comparing mmorpgs and D&d is a fundamentally flawed comparison. for example
1. in mmorpgs all the action is outside of town each town is just a safe haven where you buy/auction/meet up with the group before you get out of town. In D&D town is where role playing happens Gather information/ crafting items/ getting adventures/ or participating in adventures takes place.

in mmorpgs you can do three things to contribute to a group damage, heal, or buff.

in D&D role playing can get you everything for example i ahve had two charecters who never directly killed an enemy but were still invaluable to the group.

1. bard/ evangelist(complete divine book)talent scout and agent for the arena that used his wealth, which he accumulated in game to be the silver tounged assett that everybody loved procuring the best missions,prices, contacts/ allies and overall enjoyment for the group.

2. right now I'm playing a young clairsentient( psionic seer) girl who can't hit the broadside of a barn with a crossbow that uses her wits and skill points (gasp!) to solve mysteries and expose deeper plots that wouldn't exist in mmorpgs

3. in an mmorpg a rouge is just a fancy name for scout because you can't steal from any shop or house or most of the time pc in the universe.

I didn't post this to go on a pious rampage on the differances between mmorpgs ( like any other computer rpg with more people and larger areas) and traditional pen and paper rpgs (dudes/drinks/d20s)

just to point out one isn't ruining or even helping the other they just bring more people who are looking for diffrent things in rpgs to the table where before only social pariahs and elitests sat. now the floodgates are open to the rest of us

10:18 AM  
Blogger McClaud said...

One of the downsides of pen and paper RPGs (and some MMOs) is that a lot of people who play don't understand that it's a game you don't play to WIN, but play to have FUN. Several things I see in 4th Ed have me worried in that aspect (and I blame the designers who seem to be more concerned about building a MARKETING plan than a game):

How much is too much?

Options-wise, there's a point where options for character creation should stop or things start to get out of hand. Roles are one of the things I think is going to be vastly abused, and make it less fun for the DM to run a game. There are classes for a reason - it forces everyone to take a different part in the story so you don't have nine cloned adventurers running around. The reality is that the DM should alter his campaign to adjust for a party without a cleric instead of forcing someone to play one.

The second problem I see arising with the addition of more skills, the change up to "feats" (whatever they are going to call them now), and powers is that the temptation to "twink" gets worse. One thing that is horrid in MMOs for both devs and players is when some players totally build a character that exploits every angle to be a solitary "winner." It's unavoidable, as nearly every group of players has a twink or several twinks. 4th Edition caters - no, invites - players to twink.

The last problem I see with the new edition is that the game has been stripped of complexity in favor of dumbing down D&D for a very young group of players. Granted, Wizards targets that group, so it was inevitable that it would spill over. However, 13 year-old kids on the whole do not play or invest in D&D as much as the older, more mature crowd does. Making it 13 year-old accessible (and I directly quoted the designers on that one) makes it less desirable for people like me.

For example - cool-down spell/feat use (an MMO thing). No. Absolutely not. That is a DM tracking nightmare that should not exist and will be exploited by players in ways that will break games. Regardless of how useless they think spellcasters at the present are. A mana pool? Maybe. That's preferrable. But that suggestion was shot down by the designers because it's "not simple enough or quick enough for players in their design."

The game doesn't need to be easier or harder for PLAYERS. What it needs is to be great for DMs. There are one or two great ideas in there, but all the focus seems to be on the players. Most of the problems that the designers addressed in their podcasts were DM related. But they thought if they fixed the player-side of the game, it would get better, easier and pull people in from the MMO group. Which is not desirable at all for me and most of my associates (and there are a lot of us).

The DM is the heart of the game. If it is still tough for the DM or worse, the game will not fly. It will fall. I already know I'm not going to buy it, and I'm moving to another RPG line altogether in light of what they have shown me in one-on-one demostrations at Cons and online/downloadable articles/items.

Sorry, Wizards, but you had me until I started seeing the reality of your game. I'm out. That means Savage Worlds now has my full attention.

1:23 AM  
Blogger McClaud said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1:23 AM  
Blogger TJ said...

Just finished reading through a good of the 4E books and I'll be saving my money. I've been playing since 2nd edition and I just can't justify it anymore.

I used to play D&D online using OpenRPG and chatrooms (tabletop bores me because it's 99% out of character) and now with their move to an MMO type system... why would I want to play a slow-moving, pen and paper MMO style game?

I'd rather socialize with an online WoW guild of 2000 (yes, my current guild is that large) than with a group of 5-6 people. So the social aspect of an MMO trumps the D&D one.

I'm definitely not going to pay WoTC $15 a month for their online service. 1) Because I own a mac and they don't support us and 2) I pay $15 for WoW... which gives way more in return.

Sorry D&D. You were great once, but times have changed and I just don't care anymore.

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Please learn the difference in usage between the words "then" and "than".

1:24 PM  
Blogger CinnamonPixie said...

TJ - "I'd rather socialize with an online WoW guild of 2000 (yes, my current guild is that large) than with a group of 5-6 people. So the social aspect of an MMO trumps the D&D one."

How do you figure that socializing with your computer screen is more engaging than with 5 or 6 REAL PEOPLE right there in the room with you? There's a whole human dynamic that is missing from interaction with others in a real-world face-to-face situation.

I don't think that a table-top game takes anything away from the characters and the character interaction. On the contrary I see this new D&D 'board game' doing just that as it rips out everything that's not combat oriented and that's not directly translated into a rule with a miniature to represent it. The MMORPG is just the same. Let's face it, you can be forced to work in a team for some quests, but by and large it's still a "Me vs. the computer" game. You can play with others, in a limited "there's someone out there somewhere I can sort of kind of interact with, despite not seeing and hearing any real human qualities in their communication and personality and character (and of their character portrayed by them as a player).

I am a net junky and computer geek (and gamer geek), too. But I don't try and delude myself into believing that a handful of really good friends is somehow less engaging or less social than any number of strangers who may or may not really be paying attention or what/who they claim to be - besides 99% of the time, from what I've seen of MMORPG's (and I've tried a bunch of the years) there's little to NO character-character interaction, it's all players talking to players about characters and about characters doing things, but no real "ROLE playing" involved in MMOrpG's (as that probably SHOULD be written, the emphasis in those games is NOT "RP" but MMO and G).

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Anonymous BronzedTiger said...

It is now August of 2008, and as some UPDATES to your original info about 4th Edition, I might like to add these tidbits.

A) Gleemax has been abolished. WOTC is ..."channeling their efforts into other digital inititative". In other words, they pulled everyone that could write html to work on the still unreleased D&DI (pay for usage 4th Edition D&D database).

B) With 4th Edition, WOTC has banished the OGL..the Open Gaming License which allowed many smaller publishers to put out many exciting adventures and campaign settings that were not automatically part of the regular D&D canon. Anyone remember the most excellent Freeport Campaign Setting, or Bards Gate? No more of the like in 4th Edition. Independent sources cannot even publish material without signing on to get a WOTC Gaming License now, and lets face it....a lot of those smaller adventures were written out of love for the game, not for a profit. So the amount of fan/player inspired material for 4th Edition will plummet since no one wants to pay WOTC a fee...just to share some of their own inspiration for the game.

C) The new 4th Edition D&D plays like a laughably silly game of 'Munchkin' after characters reach around 8th level or higher. The announcement of Players Handbook Volume 2 is already out.... since WOTC purposely left several integral character class types out of the first 4th Edition PH. So now after spending $105 for the first 3 Core Books for 4th Edition, the DM and Players can probably expect to spend at least that much per year for the next 3 years...even if you never invest in a module adventure.

My advice....if you want to play D&D Online with Friends around the Country or the World..... try "fantasy grounds".... it has a 1 time fee for the program license ( of less than $25 )...for unlimited usage.

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