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Wednesday, February 15, 2006


Today I just have a guild-related idea to throw out there at you. This one concerns DKP.

Now, I know not everyone uses DKP (originally called Dragon Kill Points I believe, though the origin is murky). If you aren't aware of what DKP is, it's basically an incentive system. Bob raids all the time to gain DKP. For each raid Bob is awarded DKP (1, 8, .3, whatever, usually based on the length, success or difficulty of the raid). Then when he wants to bid on an item that drops on a raid, Bob bids DKP. If Bob wins the bid on that specific item he receives it, and the DKP he bid is deducted from his DKP total.

As I said, it's an incentive system. It encourages Bob to attend raids, even when those raids might never drop any item Bob can use. He realizes that he will still get DKP to use later for an item he really wants. It rewards the best gear to frequent raiders, when it is working correctly.

Obviously, there are many variations and additions to the basic system. For instance, some guilds allow players to earn DKP by donating certain items to the guild bank (say a T6 rare) and then allow other players to bid on them. Some guilds may allow DKP for alts and some might not. As I said, there are many different systems.

Of course, some guilds, even some of the top raid guilds, do not even use DKP at all. But I'm not debating the merits, or lack thereof, of the system. The reality is that many guilds do use it. I think I can confidently say that a majority of raid guilds do.

We record it on an Excel spreadsheet, available for guild members to check on the web. Others might use a pay guild site service which provides a DKP system as one of the features.

But I was wondering. Would it be a cool feature to allow for DKP record-keeping in game? I think it might. Leaders or officers could manually enter DKP totals in the Guild Window. Then it would very easy for everyone to check their DKP in game.

Even better, allow leaders or officers to right-click on the raid window and select the option "Award all current raiders DKP." By selecting this, each of the totals in the Guild Window would automatically increase by one. Click again if it is a two DKP raid, and so on. You would still have to allow for manual changes, obviously. It could also be a lot more complex and customizable, which would be even better.

Now I know there are some negatives to this system, but, wow, it would also be a great boon in the record-keeping department and make checking your DKP in the middle of a raid so much easier.

As an alternative, EQII Players could offer an out of game DKP tracker of some kind. But I really like the in game idea.

I would love to see EQII jump on this idea and be on the forefront of guild support, something I see becoming more and more important the future.

What do you think?


Anonymous Anachronist said...

Hmm...it would be a really nice feature for guilds, but there are a lot of multi-guild raid forces out there who might be pissed ;)

Maybe the leader of the raid force should be able to create an dkp-spread sheed.

step 1: Choose a name for the raid force; i.g. R0ol00oorz

step 2. Choose a password for the dkp-managemnt; i.g. ultral33t

step 3. Choose a pasword which allows other players to "log in" to your raid force; i.g. nagafen

When a player tries to "log in" to the raid force the reaid leader is asked for permission.

The raid leader should have the chance to assign points to all logged in players or to any player he wants to.

Would be aweful helpful, but...

If there is even the slightest, tiniest, not worth to be mentioned little bug in this, SOE will be toast ;)


1:43 AM  
Blogger Aggro Me said...

Yeah, bugs would be huge trouble. I'm assuming the guild leader/dkp officer would take daily screenshots of the in-game dkp list for back-up. Or maybe have the ability to download a log file of the dkp data with a /dkp command or something.

I didn't consider a multi-guild raid alliance...as you say that would throw a wrinkle into things.

2:45 AM  
Blogger Jack said...

I have been in a few guilds that use DKP and they all use it differently. I don't know if you could build a system into the game that would have the flexibility to cover everyone's quirky rule sets.

9:46 AM  
Blogger Narcissisa said...

That's an amazing idea. I can't even count how many times we'll be doing a fast-paced zone, get a master no-trade drop, then have to stop raid, pull up the website, order the DKP and see who out of the bidders is highest.

12:38 PM  
Blogger OnyxRaven said...

The biggest 'problem' i've seen with different dkp systems is that guilds will rate encounters with different values. A up-and-coming guild may rate a high-end fight much higher than a veteran guild who's done the fight numerous times. Another issue is adjustments which are provided for being to a raid early or on time or whatever.

Probably the best way to help guilds who use DKP would be to extend EQIIPlayers to export a dataset that shows the kills per monster per time, or other pertinent stats (list of members inside an instance and the time they spent there), and that could be imported to cross-reference a guild's own value per monster (or whole encounter) to generate the DKP. Adjustments could be made, items could be bought with those points, etc.

All of the above could be done inside of EQIIPlayers, but at least the basics could be provided, so that the community could build nice scripts or whatever to interface with it.

As for the multi-guild raid type situation, maybe the users, in game, can sign into an 'alliance' (or simply, the raid group gets tagged individually, and the raid/dkp secretary can call that up via an EQIIPlayers interface), which can then be the reference point that the stats are generated from, instead of just a guild.

12:40 PM  
Anonymous Chloe said...

I think that is an awesome idea.

As for the multi-guild raids if they had to option of a guild leader entering in dkp then that would work.

5:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The origins of DKP aren't murky at all. DKP originated from the old EQ 1 guild Afterlife. DKP (Indeed Dragon Kill Points) was the rating system they used to reward people for mob attendance and allow them to "purchase items". It wasn't long before other guilds started using Afterlife's systems because of it was so efficient. Its now acceptable MMO lingo, however let the origin not be forgotten (So it is written, so shall it be done).

6:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's a great idea, assuming everyone is honest. But after EQ1, EQ2, DAOC and WoW, I can tell you people aren't honest. In all those games I've seen the guild officers pad the dkp after making the puny member wait for officers to get on just to raid anyway.

It would be fine if you could program it so it tracked it without "officers" touching it, but that could be another 6 months in the works.

I'm playing devil's advocate and it is a great idea, except it would have to preclude Officer Greedy from tampering with "adjustments" and then blaming it on SOE and calling it a bug. I could see that lame excuse coming already.

6:13 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

DKP becomes a little more moot when you have to grind a full set of elemental gear for every active member of your guild regardless of attendance.

7:40 PM  
Anonymous Chris Holmes said...

I think the idea is awesome Aggro. And I think most of the problems are easily handled by allowing users to customize points.

Every guild uses DKP differently, sure, but at it's core DKP is just a point total next to a name. How those points get assigned to that name is a function of how people add/subtract. There is no reason a simple interface can't allow one guild to add 3DKP to everyone on a raid and a different guild add 1DKP to everyone on a raid.

Like you said, it still has to be capable of being handled at a individual level. So you bring up a dialog box (much like when you want to transfer coin) and say, "OK, everyone gets 3DKP for this raid." But then you realize Joe was late to the raid, so you go into the DKP window and dock his total by 1DKP.

And EQ2 already has a logging system written into it - every guild action is logged, every bank transaction is logged. Use the same logging system for DKP and it would be easy for anyone in the guild to immedately audit the DKP in-game spreadsheet and see if an officer was padding, or someone else got too much DKP. That's the nice thing about DKP and the spreadsheet - everyone can look and it becomes self-policing.

And another thing you could do is add a Notes field next to an entry, just like on your friend's list. Someone donates a T6 rare to the guildbank and you, as an officer, bump their DKP in the spreadsheet. On the logfile of that addition you could add a note: "DKP for T6 rare".

This totally has to get done. SOE created Station Exchange and that seemed far-fetched. DKP is an accepted standard, I don't see why this can't be or shouldn't be done.

12:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i guess you could just pop it into numsum.com or some other web spreadsheet.

7:08 PM  
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Anonymous edrugstore said...

Thanks for review. I don't know if you could build a system into the game that would have the flexibility to cover everyone's quirky rule sets. edrugstore

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